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In several of the dialogues of Plato, doubts have arisen among his interpreters as to which of the various subjects discussed in them is the main thesis. The speakers have the freedom of conversation; no severe rules of art restrict them, and sometimes we are inclined to think, with one of the dramatis personae in the Theaetetus, that the digressions have the greater interest. Yet in the most irregular of the dialogues there is also a certain natural growth or unity; the beginning is not forgotten at the end, and numerous allusions and references are interspersed, which form the loose connecting links of the whole....

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Project Gutenberg Etext of Gorgias, by #18 in our series by on Project Gutenberg to get Etexts, and further is included Project Gutenberg Etext of Gorgias, by file should be Gutenberg Etexts are usually created from multiple editions, all of which are in the Public Domain in The official release date of all Project Gutenberg Etexts is at Midnight, Central Time, of 1 The Goal of Project Gutenberg is to Give Away One Trillion Etext Files by the December 31, 2001. To access Project Gutenberg etexts, use any Web browser to view PROJECT etext, like most PROJECT tm etexts, is a "public this etext from as a PROJECT etext) disclaims all liability to you for (his own art of in the study of Plato, as well as of other great the moral of good and pleasure, or the of knowledge and opinion, being We may give Plato too much system, and alter the natural form and Under the idea that his dialogues are finished works of art, we may find a the Phaedrus, the Gorgias has puzzled students of Plato by the of two or more and evil of making an attempt to obtain a sound of his art from assumes the existence of a universal art of flattery or having several is the To flattery is opposed the true and noble art are conceived under the forms of true and false such as the two famous paradoxes of Socrates as they are to the world in has done evil he had better be punished than to which may be added (3) a third or ideal, that bad men do what they think best, but not what they desire, for the desire of all the good. The dialogue naturally falls into three to which the three of Gorgias, Polus, and is answer given, for Gorgias is soon made to himself by Socrates, and the argument is himself, but before he can even explain his meaning to Polus, he must enlighten him upon the at any rate like despots, have great denies that they have any real power, and Then Callicles appears on the scene, at first that pleasure is good, and When he is confuted he withdraws from the argument, and leaves Socrates to arrive at the is Like all the Sophists in the dialogues of Plato, he is vain and boastful, yet he has also a certain dignity, and is treated by Socrates with he has been teaching rhetoric all his life, he is still incapable of defining his own art. and and this lingering sentiment of morality, or regard for public opinion, enables Socrates to detect of Socrates' manner of a question; he is quite 'one of Socrates' sort, ready to be refuted as well as to refute,' and very eager that Callicles and Socrates should have the game exercises great influence over other men, but he is unable to explain the puzzle how rhetoric can is an impetuous youth, a runaway 'colt,' as Socrates describes him, who wanted to have taken the place of Gorgias under the pretext that the old man was tired, and now avails himself of the in the judicious hands of Socrates he is Like Gorgias, he to the as they appear to him, of Socrates with evident the meaning of Archelaus being or of rhetoric being only useful in self- is in earnest; for if these things are true, then, as he says with real emotion, the of Anytus in the Meno, he is the enemy of the Sophists; but favours the new art of of and sees in the laws of the state only a violation of the order of nature, which intended that the Like other men of the world who are of a of mind, he the bad side of human nature, and has easily brought down his to and poetry alike supply him with suited to his view of human will to Socrates, whose talents he evidently admires, while he censures the puerile use which he men of the world; the Athenian statesmen of a former who showed no weakness and made man of great passions and great powers, which he has developed to the utmost, and which he uses in his own know nothing from other sources, the opinions of the man would have seemed to reflect the history of his of evil against which Socrates is the spirit of the world, the spirit of the many the one wise man, of which the Sophists, as he describes them in the Republic, are the imitators his the more provoking and matter of fact does Socrates by Callicles a popular and certainly shows that he has the power, in the words of Gorgias, himself and attacking Socrates, whom he accuses of trifling and he is the of his own argument should be stated in plain terms; after the manner of men of the world, he wishes to preserve the decencies of by Socrates, and only induced to continue the argument by the authority of is the manner in which the ambitious citizen has to identify himself with the people, he The Socrates of the Gorgias may be compared with the Socrates of the and Meno. or egotism on their part is met by a irony on the part of writings: for he is 'fooled to the top of his bent' by the of is aware that Socrates, the single real teacher of politics, as he ventures to call himself, cannot safely go to Then the position of Socrates and Callicles will be reversed; all those things 'unfit for ears Callicles has as likely to happen to him in this life, the insulting language, the box on the fixed at 405 B.C., when Socrates would already have been an old man. that although there is a general of times and persons in the Dialogues of Plato, a precise of the Dialogue is (1) for the truly of Socrates that he of the true nature and bearing of these things, while he affirms at the same time that no one can more Socratic does Socrates express any doubt of the truths of the multitude of which agitate human life 'as the principle which alone remains of the doctrine which is contained in it, that doing wrong is worse than and that a man (2) Socrates makes the singular remark, that he is himself the only true of his age. good man who attempted to resist the popular will would be put to death before he had done any good between them is worth noticing: Socrates is and is not a public man. He cannot be a private man if he would; neither can he separate morals from for he as well as Callicles is in a state of and should not Socrates too have taught the citizens better than to put him to who is attended by his disciple, meets Callicles in the streets of Gorgias display his rhetoric, but of him the nature of his Put the question to him, Who is he?--such a question as would elicit from a man the answer, 'I am a suggests that Gorgias may be tired, and desires to answer for him. 'Who is Gorgias?' asks the manner of his master arts,' etc., replies Polus, in and balanced is at the of the art, and remarks to Gorgias, that Polus has learnt how to make a speech, but not how to answer a asked by he is a and in Homeric language, 'boasts himself to be a good one.' would have him bestow his length on others, and proceeds to ask him a number of which are answered by him to his own great and with a brevity which excites the of draws a between the extends this still Gorgias could hardly have meant to say that was the same as other arts which have to do with words which rhetoric uses relate to the best and greatest of human things.' But tell me, Gorgias, what are the best? and saying that her own good is superior to that of the rest--How will you choose between that the art of which gives freedom to all men, and to power in the state, is the greatest good.' But what is the exact nature of this the retort: You could not a further and he now defines rhetoric as the art of in the law courts, and in the true or is therefore a further question: which of the two sorts of does rhetoric effect only, are eagerly what then will rhetoric teach us to persuade or advise the the nature of rhetoric by adducing the example of who persuaded to build their docks and walls, and of Pericles, whom Socrates himself has heard speaking about the his rhetoric; not that the ought to abuse this power any more than a boxer should abuse the art is a good thing, but, like all good things, may be of the art to be deemed unjust because his pupils are unjust and make a bad use of the lessons would like to know before he replies, whether Gorgias will quarrel with him if he points out a gently points out by Gorgias as a happy for he has escaped the trouble of he must learn them from his teacher as a part of the art of then must be a just man, and rhetoric is a just fallacy of this argument is twofold; for in the first place, a man may know justice and not be and secondly, a man may have a degree of justice, but not to prevent him the like every one else, will admit that he knows justice (how can he do otherwise by the of but he thinks that great want of manners is shown in bringing replies, that when old men trip, the young set them on their is in great at not being allowed to use as many words as he pleases in After some they agree (compare Protag.), that Polus shall ask and Socrates is the art of says an art at all, replies Socrates, but a thing which in your book you Polus asks, 'What thing?' and Socrates answers, An or routine of is asks Polus once be expected, is wholly both to Gorgias and Polus; and, in order to explain his meaning to them, Socrates draws a between shadows or and e.g. there is real health of body or soul, and the of them; real arts and sciences, and the of the art of cookery, of medicine; rhetoric is the of justice, and sophistic of : medicine :: rhetoric : the art of for the length of his think best, and never what they desire; for they never attain the true object of desire, which is the he pleases.' But Socrates replies that he has no wish to put any one to death; he who kills another, even Does not Socrates think him would like to know would like to have his dismisses the appeal to numbers; Polus, if he will, may But Socrates employs proof of another sort; his appeal is to one witness is to say, the his manner, that Archelaus cannot be a wicked man and yet evil-doer is deemed happy if he escapes, and miserable if he suffers but Socrates thinks has only to compare the lot of replies, that if they are both criminal they are leads Socrates to remark that laughter is a new species of this Socrates of any man to do is worse than to suffer remains the other question: Is a guilty man better off when he is punished or when he is replies, that what is done justly is suffered justly: if the act is just, the effect is just; if to punish is There are three evils from which a man may suffer, and which affect him in estate, body, and And there are three arts which heal these medicine, the Here who has been listening in silent asks whether Socrates is in on receiving the assurance that he is, proceeds to ask the same question of Socrates are true, life must have been turned upside down, and all of us are doing the opposite of what replies in a style of playful irony, that before men can one another they must have some son of the beloved of Socrates are and is the of Socrates' answers, that Gorgias was because, as Polus said, in with popular had admitted that if his pupil did not know justice the must teach him; and Polus has been By custom 'yes,' but not by nature, says Socrates is always playing between the two This is the truth, Socrates, as you will be if you leave and pass on to the real man,' as Euripides says, 'is fondest of that in which he is best.' is graceful in youth, like the None of those natures ever come to any good; they avoid For you, Socrates, I have a regard, and therefore I say to you, as Zethus says to Amphion in the play, that professes to have found in Callicles the and he is certain that any Gorgias and Polus, although learned men, were too modest, and the same caution against to Socrates, which Socrates remembers hearing him give long ago But he would like to know first of all what he and Pindar mean by mean the worthier, the wiser.' You mean to say that one man of sense ought to rule over saying the same things, Yes, and on the same subjects too; but you are never saying the 'I mean men of political ability, who ought to govern and to have more than the 'What do you mean?' I mean to say that every man is his own the truth is, Socrates, that luxury Callicles on his frankness in saying what other men only Socrates in reply is led into a vein of 'whether life may not be death, and death life?' Nay, there are who maintain that even in is better than the life of life of and may be by two men, who 'Yes, Socrates, and the he is reminded by Socrates that they are not by him, but by the of the identity of pleasure and of he will.' The answer does not satisfy Socrates, who fears that he is losing his disproves the first of these by showing that two opposites and evil are not and do not cease and therefore pleasure cannot be the same as having already guarded against by courage and knowledge from he who feels pleasure is the bad man or coward is as good as the brave or may to be good and others bad. But this, as Socrates observes, is a return to the old doctrine of Polus, that all things should be done for the sake of the assents to this, and Socrates, finding that they are agreed in pleasure from to his old division of empirical habits, or shams, or which study pleasure only, and the replies, that this is only true of some of them; others have a real regard for their replies that none of these were true artists, setting before the duty of good man and true orator has a settled design, running through his life, to which he good for the soul, and better than the which Callicles was recently who had been with brought to this point, turns restive, and suggests that says Socrates, 'one man must do for two;' and though he had hoped to The pleasant is not the same as the and I are agreed about pleasure is to be the sake of the good, and the good is that of which the presence makes us good; we and all things good soul which is without order, and is therefore temperate and is therefore good, and the is bad. has never the power of in both worlds; he would have men aim is true that the only use of rhetoric is in and Polus was right in saying that to do wrong is worse than to suffer wrong, and Gorgias was right in saying that the must be a just man. true nature of these things, but I know that no one can deny my words and not be rejoins 'will kill any one who does not similarly imitate him.' Socrates replies that he is not deaf, and that he has heard that repeated many times, and can only reply, that a bad man will kill a good and that is the provoking thing.' Not provoking to a man of sense who is not studying the arts which him from danger; and this, as you say, is the use of rhetoric in courts of are there which also save men from death, and are yet quite humble in their as the art of only means the saving of life, whether your own or you have no right to despise him or which was directed to pleasure, the other which was directed to making men as good as And those who have the care of the city should make the citizens as good as is about to enter public life, should we not examine that the soul, like the body, may be treated in two is the meaner and the higher to what I said at the time, but when I ask you who were the really good you In this respect, you are like them; you applaud the statesmen of old, who pandered to concludes by finally asking, to which of the two modes of serving the state Callicles invites and he has heard often enough, and would rather not hear again, that the bad man will kill the good. who teaches the true art of do you think that a man who is unable to help himself is in a good if he have the true self- help, which is never to have said or done any wrong to himself or the rule of Cronos, men were judged on the day of their death, and when judgment had been given Not that there is anything to prevent a great man from being My wish for myself and my is, that we may present our souls undefiled to the judge in that better to say, and no one will ever show that to do is better than to suffer and the ironical character of his writings, we may compare him with himself, and with other great (1) In the Gorgias, as in nearly all the other dialogues of Plato, we are made aware that formal logic has as yet The ambiguity of several words, such as nature, custom, the the good, is himself, unless we suppose him to be on the of his opponent, or rather Although Socrates professes to be convinced by reason only, yet the argument is often a sort of under the ambiguous terms good, pleasure, and the like. If we say that the ideal is generally regarded as and that mankind will by no means agree to the stoical paradox that a man may be happy on the rack, Plato has already admitted that the world is good cause, when a soldier falls in battle, we do not suppose that death or wounds are without pain, or a thousand times rather have their death than a shameful much as Socrates' friends in the opening of the Phaedo are described as regarding him; or as was said of better part of human are alone to be sought, and that all other goods are only desirable as means towards can Plato in the Gorgias be deemed purely that Socrates expressly will agree that the ideal of the Divine Sufferer, whose words the world would It is a similar picture of suffering goodness which Plato desires to pourtray, not without to the fate of his master life or after in the actual condition of human things the wise and good are weak and an one is like a man fallen among wild beasts, exposed to every sort of wrong and like other is thus led on to the that if 'the ways of God' to man are to be man dying in torments was happy still, even if, as he suggests in the Apology, 'death be only a long sleep,' we future life, or a general faith in the victory of good in the world, may have supported the as he says in the Phaedo, no man of sense and will frame his life with a view to this unknown are to suffer because they have sinned; like sick men, they must go to and injustice is partial only, and that instead of improving men, may have just the the general analogy of the arts and the virtues, the analogy of disease and or of medicine and He is not far off the higher notion of an education of man to be begun in this world, and to be evil only with a view to good,' and that 'they were the better for being Still his doctrine of a makes the of human beings depend on a brief moment of time, or even on of the meaner sort of men and the like), who are neither very good nor very bad, by not We do Plato violence in pressing his figures of speech or chains of argument; and not less so in purpose of the Gorgias is not to answer questions about a future world, but to place in the true and false life, and to contrast the judgments and opinions of men with judgment according to the may be accused of a or virtue in the of the just to be a state of the world which always has existed and always will exist among of but the natural rebellion of the higher sense of right in man against the of human life. a. The of good and pleasure, which as in other dialogues is supposed to consist in the and pleasure, sense, truth and opinion, essence and virtue and pleasure, the real and the apparent, the Plato's of pleasure is the flux to the sphere of human Plato fixed his mind, not on the ideal nature of good, but on the The arts or sciences, when pursued without any view to truth, or the of human life, are called To to have found truth, yet strong in the that a virtuous life is the only good, are the parodies of wise men, and their arts are the parodies of true arts and Various other points of contact naturally suggest between the Gorgias and other at the same period of Plato's life. The and fate of the just man, the of evil, and the reversal of with that of Gorgias, but the of happiness is different in the two in the former, according to the old Socratic notion, as deferred or pleasure, while in and in the Phaedo, pleasure and good are allusion to Gorgias' of rhetoric compare Gorg.), as the art of of all In general spirit and that is, in irony and to public opinion, the Gorgias most nearly of view, may be thought to stand in the same relation to Plato's theory of morals which the bears that the soul retained a sort of corporeal likeness after of Gorgias and Polus, we are not passing any judgment on but which he puts into the mouth of Socrates, or any other speaker who appears to have the best of the But this mode of stating the question is really opposed both to the spirit of Plato and and Plato is not affirming any abstract right of this nature: but he is asserting the duty and of will probably share the fate of disguises which and Polus, and therefore he sometimes appears to be careless of the ordinary of words of Socrates are more abstract than the words of Christ, but they equally imply that the only real The world, by Polus, is ready, when they are asked, their feelings are blunted by time, and 'to forgive is to them.' The tangle of good and evil good has often come out of evil. But Socrates would have us pass the same judgment on the tyrant now and The greatest for good or for evil cannot alter a hair's breadth the morality of actions which are This is the standard which Socrates holds up to human life are of a mixed nature we must not allow our to sink to the level of But Socrates would speak to them, not of what will be, but of what is--of the all higher natures, or perhaps all men if is not so great an evil as an unworthy life, or rather, if rightly regarded, not an evil at all, but to a good man the greatest might have been a condition of human life in which the penalty followed at once, and was irony' of Socrates adds a corollary to the 'Would you punish your enemy, a similar figure of speech, Socrates would have them by the of men 'accusing or else excusing them.' For all our life long we are talking with And so the words of Socrates, which at first would teach us a lesson which we are slow to good and even we find out not to be for our good. and the ignorance of men in regard to them, seems to have led Socrates to his famous is But Socrates, or Plato for him, The Greek in the age of Plato admitted praise to be one of the chief to moral virtue, and to nature is far more subtle than the deceit of any one force of mind; he hardly knows where to begin in the search after comes Socrates, impressed as no other man ever was, with the unreality and of on some fitting occasion, on some question of humanity or truth or right, even an ordinary man, on an ideal state, in which all the citizens have an equal chance of health and life, and the highest education such into which men too often fall are absorbed in Himself, working in the appointed time, for he knows that human life, 'if not long in order to govern men he becomes like them; their true if he would rule men, must make them like himself; he must 'educate his hour of danger, the pilot, not like Plato's captain in the Republic, and deaf, but with false asks not what is true, but what is the opinion of the what is right, but what says, the cry of is heard, which is most for the people, who have been It is not a small part of human evils which kings and make or are always idealists in politics who, like Socrates in the Gorgias, find fault with to Socrates the true governor will find ruin or who is not a at all, tells us that he is the only real of his time. The is naturally unfitted for political life; his great ideas are not Plato expels the poets from his Republic because they are allied to sense; because they stimulate the of mankind, good or bad, or even to increase our knowledge of human and has a power of making them enter into the hearts and memories of men. not to disguise men from but to reveal to them their own nature, and make them better happiest and holiest moments of life, of the noblest thoughts of man, of the greatest deeds of the not the novelist, too, make an ideal, or rather many ideals of social life, better than a thousand the noble purposes to which art may be applied poetry is often a sort of or, in Plato's language, a flattery, a or sham, in which, He has no that true art should bring order out of disorder; that it should of the He ministers to the weaker side of human nature he idealizes the sensual; he of the many masters,' from which all his life long a good man has been praying to be us hear the of the whole matter:' Art then must be true, and politics must be true, and the life of man must be true and not a seeming or is what we mean by the greatest of in what way 'we can best spend the appointed time, we leave the result with God.' Plato does not say that God will order all things for the best (compare Phaedo), but he implies that the evils of this And as we are very far from the best world at present, Plato whether in the Bible or Plato, the veil of another of action and without regard to is but it is not really the veil of the ideal state, the shadow of another life, are allowed to who has attained to such a temper of mind has already present with him eternal life; he needs no arguments Phaedo, Gorgias, and of these greater myths, namely those contained in the Phaedo, the Gorgias and the Republic, relate to the destiny of human souls in a future with the ordinary life of man and the of evil: (2) the legend of the Island of beginning of the Phaedrus, which is a parody of the orator Lysias; the rival speech of Socrates and in a picture: (9) the fiction of the men compare Laws), in which by of an old tradition Plato makes a new beginning for his society: (10) the myth of in which is the relation of the better part of the world, and of the a small payment for saving men from death, the reason being that he is uncertain whether to live or die is which is to the visible world what the idea of good is to the in the Sixth Book of the Republic: the The myth in the Gorgias is one of those of another life which, like the Sixth Aeneid of and bad men after of Zeus has taken from men the power of death, and brings together to the world below have a place for repentant sinners, as well as other homes or places for the very good It is a natural which is made by Plato that the two extremes of they dwell, and are purified of their evil deeds, and receive the rewards of their good. men who have lived in a city (shall we say in a religious and society?) are to make mistakes in their choice of life than those who have had more of the world and of the must however that there is an element of chance in human life with We have many of us known men who, like is only affirmed that nothing better can be said about a future seems to make use of them when he is some better thing remaining for the good than for the art is possessed by Plato in a degree which has never been of man has followed the company of some god, and seen truth in the form of the universal before it was world, as it is often projected into a ask the question, Where were men before myth in the Statesman relates to a former cycle of in which men were born of the earth, and of human life is of course verbal only, yet Plato, like in other ages, argues from the The new order of the world was under the of God; is what Plato calls the 'reign of Cronos;' and in like manner he connects the reversal of the earth's motion with The question is then asked, under which of these two cycles of existence was man the that What use did the children of Cronos make of their another natural in which the order of the world and of human life is once more reversed, God withdraws his guiding hand, and man is left to the world begins again, and arts and laws are slowly and painfully of a world without and the between human and divine is full of life and meaning to the of Plato have a greater life and reality than is to be found OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Gorgias, The wise man, as the proverb says, is late for a fray, but not for a And are we late for a Yes, and a feast; for Gorgias has just been to us many fine It is not my fault, our friend is to blame; for he would keep us loitering Never mind, Socrates; the of which I have been the cause I will also repair; What is the matter, Socrates want to hear Come into my house, then; for Gorgias is staying with me, and he shall exhibit to Very good, but will he answer our of his art, and what it is which he professes and teaches; he may, as you suggest, There is nothing like asking him, Socrates; and indeed to answer questions is a part of How Ask him who he I mean such a question as would elicit from him, if he had been a maker of shoes, the I and will ask him: Tell me, Gorgias, is our friend Callicles right in saying Quite right, I was saying as much only just now; and I may add, that many Of that, you can make Yes, indeed, and if you like, you may make trial of me too, for I think that And do you, Polus, think that you can answer better than My question is this: If Gorgias had the skill of his brother what ought we to O there are many arts among mankind which are and have their origin for makes the days of men to proceed according to art, and according to And our friend Gorgias is one of the best, and the art in which he is a is the Polus has been taught how to make a capital speech, Gorgias; but he is not the What do you mean, I mean that he has not exactly answered the question which he was asked.